Galley Drain
Hose
Allan, Please provide a phone no. and I will call
you to disscuss this . The
photos you attached did not seem to depict what you described in the text.
Gerry Douglas
From: Allan Field [mailto:Allan.Field@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 6:38 PM
To: Gerry Douglas
Subject: Galley Sink Drain
Dear Mr.
Douglas - Attached are 5 pictures from my boat, C320 #808. Following
is a description of each picture:
Galley
Drain #1: This one shows the galley sink drain hose bent around the
plywood that I claimed earlier could saw through the hose.
Galley
Drain #2: This one shows where the plywood has started to saw
through the hose. The sawed area on the hose is about 3/4" long and
the divot in the hose is about 1/16" deep. Note
that I have owned Sea Shadow less than 2 years.
Galley
Drain #3: The drawer assembly has been removed and this is a picture of
the port side of the assembly. Note that the piece of protruding plywood
is clean.
Galley
Drain #4: This is a view of the starboard side of the assembly.
Note that the plywood is black from hose residue. What you cannot see is
that the plywood has been rubbed smooth - almost sanded smooth - by the
hose.
Galley
Drain #5: This is a view of the port side of the assembly after the
protruding plywood has been cut away and the problem is fixed.
Following
is my reply to each point you raised in your note back to the C320 SailNet list
on 5/13/03:
1.
You stated, "The hose from the sink drain to the through hull is 1" i.d. Shields multi-ply, rubber, steel wire reinforced,
marine exhaust hose ( in order to better take temperatures from hot or boiling
water that may go down the drain ) .This is a high quality hose and very
tough." The hose is indeed high quality and very tough, as you
state. However, it also seems to be being sawed through by the plywood
design. The question thus is not "if" the hose will be sawed
through but "when". Given the toughness of the hose, I will
stipulate that it will take awhile but still contend that it will
eventually saw through.
2.
You stated, "In order for "sawing" to take place one of the to
objects in contact would need to move to cause abrasion.
This is not the case, the support for the drawer unit does not move when the
drawer is opened and closed. The fact that there is contact does not mean that
abrasion is taking place." Galley Drain #2 picture
speaks for itself. Something is moving as abrasion and sawing are
occurring.
3. You stated, "I don't think you could effectively
"saw " through a steel reinforced hose with a piece of 1/4
" plywood in this installation." Again, Galley Drain #2
picture speaks for itself. I agree that the plywood won't get through the
wire, but it only needs to get through the rubber.
4.
You stated, "After reviewing the postings I inspected a number of 320s and
I honestly did not see a cause for concern. I would encourage all 320
owners to make an inspection of the drain hose, should anyone find an
abraded hose, Catalina will supply a replacement hose at no charge.( This offer is valid until the end of the calendar year
2003). This does not include installation ,
which is relatively easy." Your statement #3 would logically
lead to the no-cause-for-concern conclusion in statement #4. You are
correct that installation is relatively easy; I was able to accomplish it in
about 45 minutes, not counting the trip to WM! As for encouraging
all owners to inspect, I will return to this point later.
5.
You stated, "The angle of the drain hose decent (sic) can easily be
changed by loosening the hose clamps at the tee at the sink drains and
rotating it a few degrees, this will relieve hard contact between the hose and
the cabinet in most cases, if you feel this is necessary." I
tried this and was not successful. This is only opinion but judging from
the manner in which the hose clamps were installed at the thru-hull, I would
guess that the thru-hull, hose and sink were installed before the hot water
heater base, hot water heater, and drawer assembly were installed. When
the drawer assembly was installed, someone had to physically bend the hose
around the protruding piece of plywood. The reason I believe this to be
so, but am not certain, is that I had to use a stubby screwdriver in order to
remove the hose clamps as the screw ends were pointed towards the hot water
heater base.
6.
You stated, "Catalina has always taken a proactive position regarding safety issues, and when appropriate,
issued bulletins to owners and or dealers and used the Mainsheet magazine to inform
all concerned. There have not been any bulletins issued regarding the
320." This, Mr. Douglas, is the crux of the issue for
me. When I sent my first blast on this issue, I assumed that Catalina was
aware of this design flaw and had done nothing. Your statement #4 leads
me to believe that this may not be the case and perhaps this was the first
Catalina was aware of the issue. I am willing to give the benefit of the
doubt on this one. However, I remain convinced that the only remedy for
this is a bulletin to owners and dealers. Notification in Mainsheet and
on this list is not adequate as only one person needs to be missed for this to
be a problem. I am aware that many on this list - self-proclaimed prudent
sailors - will take exception to this position, insisting that ultimately, the
owner is responsible for what happens to the boat once it leaves the
dock. And I have no problem with this position in essence. My issue
simply is that no Catalina owner should be put in a position of
leaving the dock with a manufacturer's design flaw that has potential for
catastrophic results that the owner may neither be trained nor
qualified to find on his/her own. Again, I am not talking about Catalina
lack of quality control issues here, such as failure to bed stanchions
properly, running rigging that does not run fair, water tanks that leak when filled, fuel tanks that leak when filled, etc. These
are neither design flaws nor glitches that can sink the boat but rather are
simple failures of quality control in complex systems. I can live
with these, especially since the dealer and Catalina have stood behind every
one of these brought to the dealer's attention. At the end of the day, I
am fortunate that Jeff Hare (#809) not only caught this problem but also shared
it with the list. Others may not be so fortunate and again, it is my very
strong belief that Catalina has a duty and responsibility to get the word out
to every owner that may be affected by this design.
Thank you
for your attention and interest in this matter and I leave it to you to
determine what the right thing, if anything, to do is.
Allan S.
Field
Sea Shadow
- #808
Herrington
Harbour South
Dear Allan
I asked for the pictures as I was prepared to be convinced that the hose could be damaged to the point where it would flood the boat. In my view your pictures show a clumsy design but having seen the hose I am still not convinced it would lead to catastrophic failure. It is a wire reinforced hose and the picture tends to show surface rubbing rather than sawing into the substance of the material. I agree it is a problem which should be brought to Catalina's attention.
If it was my boat I would do exactly as you have done and cut out the timber. My point of difference is that I do not believe there is the same extent of risk as you do. I am not familiar with the through hull layout of the later hulls but it looks from your photo that regular inspection would show a problem very quickly.
I think Gerry in his email summed the issue up reasonably well.
Thanks for taking the time to send the photos. It really helps to see the problem
Regards
Don
Hi Allan
I have looked really closely at the picture including opening it with photo adobe and magnifying it. I think you were absolutly right in raising it becuase if people keep silent about a problem thats when disasters do happen. I know flow rates on a severed hose can let a lot of water in quickly which is why I have a bilge alarm fitted. Certainly a belt rubbing on a hose will cut through both the belt and the hose very quickly. In this instance though, I can still see the pattern marking of the hose even though it has been rubbed. Even if it did rub through the hose you would not get the knid of severing a belt produces but more of a weeping which would gradually get worse. This should allow time for it to be detected.
I agree having had the issue pointed out Catalina could provide advice to owners to check because it is poor wormanship on thier part
Regards
Don
From: Allan
Field
To: SWYC
Cc: Jeff Hare
Sent:
Subject: Re: Galley Drain
Don - Thanks for your quick reply. Please take a look at these 2 pictures and see if you still think this is surface rubbing. The damaged area is about 3/4" long and about a 1/16" divot into the hose. I have an advantage that I have the hose in front of me and it looks like sawing to me!
Many years ago on my
previous boat, I carelessly rigged a "quick" anti-freeze connection
from the engine thru-hull and used a little too much hose. While out on a
40 degree day in water about 35 degrees, a belt rubbing against the hose
finally broke through the hose with a 1/2" slit and I learned firsthand
how quickly a boat can fill with very cold water! When I finally
discovered the problem, the water was up over the floorboards and I was in the
middle of the
I do not have a history of,
"ready, fire, aim". From my vantage point, what I saw scared
me. In retrospect, I only wish that Gerry had not responded until after
he sent the Dealer down to look at my configuration and damage. Too many
people have now staked out positions on this issue without evidence and I doubt
that any evidence from me is going to change things. "The Truth Is
Just Another Argument!" Answers like closing thru-hulls, wearing
life preservers, carrying life boats, renaming the boat, etc. are so far off
the mark that I am reluctant to put this back on the list. I will take
your advice and send the pix to Gerry and let it be his problem. While I
think that the "right thing to do" is a notice to all owners and dealers, that is going to have to be his call. Thanks
again. – Allan
Hi
Guys,
Thanks for the pictures. This is very
similar to mine, except that my drawer unit
didn't have quite as much of an original cut-out as yours. The hose
had to take a true
90 degree bend to get past it. and was pressed on top of the metal hot
water bracket,
although I don't think it had enough time to cause any damage there..
Is there something that you'd like me to do with
the pictures, or are they just for
reference?
I feel like I got spanked pretty good on this issue,
so I'm keeping a low profile... :)
Kind of embarrassing actually.. :-)
-Jeff
I am sorry you guys feel that way. I never set out to give you a going over. We have just explored a difference of views in which we all agree that Catalina has been slack. We just disagreed on the consequences of that slackness. My emails were never meant to be offensive and I apologise if you have felt that way. I think everyone should feel OK about tabling a problem
Regards
Don
-----
Original Message -----
From: Allan
Field
Sent:
Subject: Re: Galley Drain
Jeff
- If you are feeling "spanked", then I am feeling down right
mugged! Seriously, after "talking" with Don, I took his advice
and sent the pix to Gerry and let him deal with it. My dog is no longer
in this fight... The pix were sent to you just to keep you in the
loop. I don't expect you to do anything with them but once again, many
thanks for bringing this issue to my attention. I may be the only person
on this list who really appreciates what you did, but I am very appreciative! –
Allan
Adam (and others) - Sorry
guys, we are not talking about contributory negligence here. That is not the issue. On the healthcare side, we are not talking
about the patient who smokes and drinks, refuses to wear a seat belt, is
morbidly obese, has uncontrolled hypertension and diabetes, or has many other
self-inflicted lifestyle conditions that may eventually lead to medical
misadventures and the inevitable lawsuit.
And we are not talking about the failure of some munchkin at Catalina to
use enough wire ties, correctly bed a stanchion, or install a quality battery
charger that doesn't just boil water; these are the kind of quality control
things we all have learned to live with and at least don't sink the boat. And we are not talking about whether or not
someone takes a Coast Guard course or wears a harness when sailing. Rather, we are talking a design flaw here
that can sink the bloody boat. Focus
guys. As long as listees
continue to jump so quickly to the defense of Catalina, Catalina has no need to
defend itself, notify the entire ownership of this flaw, or take any other
action. Catalina loyalty is admirable
and I think that they are a good company.
I even wear their overpriced hat!
(grin!)
I know they have stood by problems I have had including one covered past
the warranty period. Again, that is not the point. The point is when there is a design flaw that
has potential for catastrophic results, where is the obligation of the builder
to notify the owners? Where is Catalina?
Jeff, and others, make an excellent point that ultimately, we are responsible
for our own seamanship. As a US Navy
veteran, I have no problem with this concept as it was "drilled" into
me during my 6 year career. But I do
have a problem with going to sea with a design problem sufficient to possibly
sink the boat. We also must recognize
that we all come to this with different skill sets and levels of
knowledge. Jeff blows me away with his
knowledge of electricity, something I will never in a hundred years understand
as well as he does. So if Catalina miswires something and the boat burns up, is it my fault
for not catching the flaw? Again, I am
sorry, but I think that the builder owes us a certain amount of upfront
seamanship in design that protects us from ourselves, or at least the some of
us with less than sufficient knowledge.
And when an inevitable flaw is discovered, there is an obligation to
notify.
As for myself, I like to
think that since I know the inside of my boat fairly well, I could find a
sawed-through hose quickly enough to prevent the boat from sinking, assuming I
was on board when the hose ruptured. But
just last week, there was a posting from someone asking how many below the
waterline thru hulls there were and how many there were. A few "veterans" of the list
admitted that they forgot about the speedo and depth
thru hulls... And maybe what I am really
frustrated about is that I misplaced my trust in the builder that I would not
be put in harm's way by a design flaw and this lack of mistrust, unlike Jeff,
did not send me into my boat looking for the inevitable design flaws. Wisdom and experience truly are what is left
over after all the mistakes have been made, eh?!
An argument sure to be used
is that in the history of the C320, no boat has ever sunk because of this
design flaw; I am only anticipating this response and do not know it to be
true. One of my absolute pet peeves with
the healthcare industry is that generally speaking, we often need to kill
someone before we change our policies and procedures even when we intuitively
know them to be wrong. Is that what it
will take here, a catastrophic event before the design is changed or, again at
the minimum, a recall notice is issued?
I must have touched a chord with Catalina today as Gerry Douglas called
and we are playing phone tag.
And finally, opening and
closing the drawer is not the problem here.
Rather, the frame of the drawer has an unnecessary thin piece of plywood
extension at the back that acts as a saw as the hose rubs up against it. I will take pictures this weekend - before
and after the Dremel saw fix - and will send to anyone so requesting.
And the bell rings for Round 2!!! - Allan
Dear 320 Owners,
Allow me to offer a few comments to put the
remarks of Mr. Weiner in
perspective.
1. The hose from the sink
drain to the through hull is 1" i.d. Shields multi-ply,
rubber, steel wire reinforced, marine exhaust hose ( in order to better take
temperatures from hot or boiling water that may go down the drain ) .This is a
high quality hose and very tough.
2. In order for
"sawing" to take place one of the to objects in contact would need to
move to cause abrasion.
This is not the case, the support for the drawer unit does not move when the
drawer is opened and closed. The fact that there is contact does not mean that
abrasion is taking place .
3. I don't think you could
effectively "saw " through a steel
reinforced hose with a piece of 1/4 " plywood in this installation.
4. After reviewing the
postings I inspected a number of 320s and I honestly did not see a cause for
concern. I would encourage all 320 owners to make an inspection of the drain
hose, should anyone find an abraded hose, Catalina will supply a replacement
hose at no charge.( This offer is valid until the end
of the calendar year 2003). This does not include installation
, which is relatively easy.
5. The angle of the drain
hose decent can easily be changed by loosening the hose clamps at the tee at
the sink drains and rotating it a few degrees, this will relieve hard contact
between the hose and the cabinet in most cases, if you feel this is necessary.
6. Catalina has always taken
a proactive position regarding safety issues, and when appropriate, issued
bulletins to owners and or dealers and used the Mainsheet magazine to inform
all concerned. There have not been any bulletins issued regarding the 320.
Thank you
for the opportunity to address the 320 list, and congratulations on maintaining
a very lively and useful discussion group.
Good Sailing, Gerry Douglas
Be interesting to join the
owners chat list for those boats and see what the owners really have to say. A
salesman who supports a competitor is indeed a rare breed
Don
Sei Sui
Well, I had guess you had better sell your Catalina and buy an Island Packet,
a Caliber, or better yet, a Swan. If you
talk to any of the sales people of those three yachts they will tell you that
you are taking your life in your hands every time you step onto a
Catalina. In fact, a Swan salesmen told
me that the plumbing on Catalinas were so bad that he
was surprised that all Catalinas did not sink. Of course, the boat he was showing me cost
(stripped) over 750K, but hey, I bet there were no plumbing issues.
As for me, I still worry
more about the drive back and forth to the marina. After all, that is where we are most likely
to get injured.
If you don't want to sell,
just rename your boat "Titanic", "
Me, I don't come to the
quick defense of Catalina, but I realized when I bought it that there were
better designed and built boats out there, but they cost a whole heck of a lot
more.
Warmest regards,
Adam